How to manage up

Kristen: The relationship with your manager is the most predictive factor of job satisfaction, career progression and whether you’ll quit in the next 12 months. We’ve heard this a lot. Managers are key to your happiness. Or, I suppose, your sadness. And some research I read recently says one in two people quit over their manager.

Nat: It’s such an interesting dynamic, because one of the things we forget when we talk about our manager is that the relationship, like any relationship, is a two way street. We’re both responsible for the success of it. But because of that weird power imbalance, and we think it’s not weird, it is a power imbalance, we think it’s their job to make it successful, and we put ourselves in a really passive position.

Kristen: It’s so interesting, because no one ever teaches you how to be managed. I know that sounds weird, but it’s true. The fact that you just said it’s a two way street, no one ever tells you that, first of all. And you are managed from a very early age, where it often tends to be hierarchical. You know nothing at university, you’re learning how to do these jobs, and then you enter the workforce and you really know nothing. Of course you bring your unique perspective, but no one ever teaches you that you actually have power and influence and a voice and a perspective, and this is how you might use that in a work context.

But equally, no one ever teaches a manager how to manage. Most are promoted because they were good at their previous role, and I read a stat where they get on average four hours of people leadership training in a given month.

Nat: There’s a whole bunch of research on this. We still prioritise technical skills over everything else, even though when you ask around, the biggest challenges people face in their jobs and their relationships are not technical. We all know how to do the work. It’s how we navigate relationships, how we influence, how we get our voice heard, how we figure out and solve problems. None of that is taught. Instead we focus on, wow, they can solve this through their technical know-how, they’re a good architect, they’re a good accountant, and we plunk them into a role that doesn’t need those skills at all. It needs great leadership skills.

Kristen: So we’re here to help both sides of the equation a little bit today, with some aha moments and learnings from our lives and what we’ve picked up from our Powrsuit community. You’re right, it is a two way street. So what does it look like to be managed and take control of that situation? But equally, all the people leaders listening, make it easy. You can also make…

Nat: …it easy. And one of the things I’ve been talking to a few of our fabulous Powrsuit partners about is the role of managers in Powrsuit. It’s all fine and good for our members to be building these self leadership skills and learning a lot of skills their managers also haven’t been taught. But if they’re coming up against a manager who hasn’t learned these skills, who doesn’t see the value of one-on-ones, or giving and receiving feedback, who’s uncomfortable having direct conversations, that puts a lot of onus on our members.

It also means their managers often underestimate the power of professional development, because they’ve never received it, unless it’s compliance-based or technical training. So they’re not super supportive, even if it’s unconscious. Not super supportive of our members investing in themselves, and also of them applying what they learn in the office, because they don’t see it as valuable, because they haven’t had the opportunity to experience it either.

I find that really interesting, that we see managers as so different from us, like they must have got there and therefore know everything. But the harsh truth is, if you’re a Powrsuit member, you’re probably learning skills your manager may not have.

Kristen: Yeah. I love that. And just a last thought before we jump into a couple of big aha moments about managing up. It is okay if you never become a people leader. It’s so ingrained in us that you go from being an individual contributor to being promoted into a people leader. It is okay if you don’t like it. If you’ve done a strengths test and coaching isn’t in your top ten skill set, and you don’t want to flex that muscle and learn how to develop people, then you don’t have to do it. You can have a crazy successful career without being a people leader. I just think it’s okay to not want to be one and to not be one. But it’s funny how we just assume it’s the latter.

Nat: And that’s why we have so many managers getting Powrsuitors in a pickle. The managers don’t see their role as looking after people. They see people as sort of an inconvenient addition, because they’ve become a people leader as the next step up the hierarchy, not because they had a real passion for leading and developing and helping the people below them get successful. It’s a really interesting light bulb moment for a lot of people who get into these roles, where they suddenly go, oh, I don’t like this part of the role. And it’s like, yep, great, there are a lot of other options out there.

Sadly we still live in a world where staying purely in a technical role isn’t always rewarded as much as people leadership. But it does feel like, especially in innovative companies, we’re heading there and starting to recognise there’s no point putting a square peg into a round hole.

Kristen: My brain flip-flopped on one thing you said, and I’d be keen to hear your thoughts. If you don’t want to lead and coach and help others perform, I think sometimes what happens is, one, organisations don’t set managers up to succeed, because their delivery expectations are crazy on top of managing a team. That could be a scenario. Another scenario could be that the person never learns to go, we have to deliver this stuff as a team, so I’m going to delegate. So there are a few things playing out. But that’s another podcast.

Nat: Absolutely. And all of this is to say, we’re not saying here that managers are perfect and it’s all on you. What we’re saying is, the reality is there are a bunch of factors that probably mean whoever your boss is, a) hasn’t been set up for success, b) has probably formed some bad habits as a result, and c) probably doesn’t know some of the skills you’ll be learning through even listening to this podcast. That doesn’t mean you’re completely in the right all the time, because dynamics are dynamics. But we’re not saying it’s all on you. We are saying you can take more control over this dynamic than many of us realise.

So my first mindset shift is that neither of you, you or your manager, can succeed without the other. That’s a really important realisation. Your manager needs you to succeed in order for them to succeed. So they have power over your daily experience and what you do, but you have power over their success. It’s very much a two way street.

Kristen: And seeing yourself as a team is really important. I don’t think people tend to think of themselves as a team with their manager. That idea of success is really interesting too, because sometimes we forget that success looks very different to different people. Your idea of success might be landing your next role, it might be delivering a project, it might be whatever is top of mind for you. And for them, success could look very different.

So getting clear on that, and this is a really easy action to take, ask your manager what success looks like for them. Most people don’t do that. But if you asked them every month, what does success look like for you this month, how do I better help you get to that, you may find the reason there are complications in your dynamic is that you’re both running in totally different directions and prioritising totally different things. Whereas coming back together and going, we now have a joint understanding of what success looks like and we’re working as a team to get there, even if you don’t like each other to start, that may help you like each other a little bit more.

And even just asking, how does my daily work tie into that? How does what I’m doing day in and day out tie into your success, and what could change, or what might you like done slightly differently? Get curious.

Nat: Love that tip, easy action. What is it, assuming makes an ass out of you and me? I really like that statement. We’ve literally just covered that you’ve maybe got quite different ideas of what success looks like, what the big challenges are, what the day-to-day priorities are, what your values are, all those things. And if you’re struggling with your manager, those are probably looking quite different.

My suspicion is that what most people do in this situation is make a whole bunch of assumptions. My manager doesn’t support me. My manager doesn’t like me. My manager’s too busy. My manager doesn’t care about this. My manager’s a micromanager. Whatever it is, rather than stopping and saying, what does success look like for you, and vice versa. So it ties into the first one. But it is interesting how quickly we make assumptions about who someone is based on a very small amount of evidence of what they do.

Kristen: Conversely, don’t forget they’re probably making assumptions about us as well. They’re making assumptions about how busy we are, what we’re working on, the goals we have, what success looks like to us, whether we like certain types of work. They’re casting the same picture on us. And unless you speak up and share it, we can assume they’re assuming as well.

Nat: And then we’re all asses. I love this. Quick little action. I love that you put an action up top about getting curious and asking what success looks like. My action for this one would be to start by being really transparent about what you’re working on. That could be as simple as an email. This week I completed these three key things. Next week I’m focusing on this priority. And then, what I need from you is, I need you to unblock the stakeholder, I need this financial statement delivered, whatever that might be.

And then if they want context, and we’re going to get to this next, how they want to be communicated with, you add any context. But I love the bullet points of, this is what I’m working on, this is what’s next, this is how you can help me. I think that’s a really great start to a dialogue about what’s keeping you busy and what you’re delivering.

Kristen: One of the most powerful ways you can show self leadership and ownership over your work is to tie those three key priorities, or the things you achieved, back to your shared understanding of success. Managing people throughout my career, I’m constantly shocked when they don’t understand what the priority is. They’ll say, this is what I’ve worked on this week, and I’m like, what? Why did you work on that this week? We’re trying to focus on this thing.

It’s really easy at a high level to go, great, we’re all focused on this. But actually, I had a lot of meetings this week, and I had this pet project I was working on, and someone gave me this piece of work. The actual detail of the work you do gets out of sync very quickly. So of those three things, at least two of them should directly point to the success you’ve agreed to. And you should keep tying it back to that, because over-communication… well, I suppose that brings us to point three.

Nat: Over-communication is really helpful. And styles vary. Some managers just want an executive summary and others want every detail. Some make decisions really quickly, others need to process and think and take it in and will get back to you in 24 hours. Some give direct feedback, others hint at what they want.

The point, with all humans and all relationships, is that it’s our responsibility. It should be everyone’s responsibility to crack the code of the other person, to work out what’s going to land, and in what medium. Is it email? Is it one-on-ones? Is it grabbing them in the hallway? How can I crack their code of what they need, what types of information they need, how they like to get it? And what do I need from them, and how do I share that? Asking someone for a decision on the spot when they actually need time to process is unfair. You just say, here’s the information, could we chat tomorrow and you could make a call on it, that would be great. That’s cracking your manager’s code and managing up.

Kristen: That really highlights what we’re trying to convey about changing your mindset. The idea of a manager often makes us all think it’s their job to manage me, it’s their job to hand everything to me on a silver platter. And that’s absolutely okay if that’s how you want to approach the relationship. But the easiest and fastest way to showcase value, get those promotions and become indispensable is to flip that mindset on its head and go, how do I take control of this relationship, make it successful and crack the code? Really owning that is such a fast track.

And I love what you said about what managers want and don’t want. A caveat to that is that it often changes depending on your behaviour. My default is just to have the executive summary. But if I’m in a position with someone who gets off track or distracted or is constantly overwhelmed, I want much more detail than that until I can see they’re on the right path.

I think the concept of autonomy is slightly stuffed at work, because there’s no such thing as autonomy in an organisation. You’re in an organisation of moving parts that need to operate together. But if you want more scope to go and do things on your own, building that trust with your manager that you’re going to deliver to the standard they expect, towards the success you’re both working towards, is your fastest path to having a bit more flex. So I love this one. Recognising that it’s on you to communicate, and getting really clear on how it works for them and delivering that.

Nat: And we shouldn’t overlook asking for help either. If you’re finding yourself not meeting your deliverables, or not working on stuff you love that flexes your strengths, or if you see an area where you can add more value, it’s okay to ask for their help in those conversations, because that actually is their responsibility. If you chat to any CEO at any organisation, they’d go, I want to have the right people on the bus, sitting in the right seats, going in the right direction. I had to put on the voice.

Kristen: They’re all American. And maybe Southern.

Nat: American. I’m just thinking, I went straight to a yellow school bus. That’s a North American thing. But that’s what the CEO wants. So managers are tasked with making sure the right people are using the right skills, doing the right jobs and the right delivery.

So you can ask them, hey, I’ve noticed I haven’t been able to deliver this on time, I think it’s because I’m being pulled into too many meetings. Can you help me navigate this and work out what I can say no to? Or, can you help me reprioritise these things, because I’ve been asked to deliver far more than is humanly possible? Asking for their help that way, can you help me solve this problem, and getting together very quickly and chatting, that is the job of a manager. And if you don’t like that, then don’t do it.

Kristen: I agree. The only tweak I’d make is that rather than saying I’ve been given far too much for a human to achieve, go in with curiosity. I’m really struggling to deliver all the stuff on my plate, I’d love to have a conversation with you about how this can be better managed. It may be a time management issue on your side, and it could well be, so be really open to that. Or it could be that there’s a whole bunch of work on your plate that’s invisible to them, that they didn’t know you were even grappling with.

So going in curious and asking for genuine help, not defensively, not trying to prove that you’ve got way too much on and you’re overwhelmed, is a really nice way to tackle that and build a relationship focused on, how do we work together as a team to figure this out? I’m not fully relying on you and saying it’s your problem, get it sorted for me. I’m coming with solutions, I’m coming with thoughts, but I’m comfortable asking for what I need, often, and especially in advance of a pickle. The sooner the better.

So the action for this one might just be practice. Observe, get curious about how that person likes to be communicated with, get clear on what you need, and then use those moments and those channels to express exactly that. Practise adapting, and try to get into a cadence where you feel heard and you have enough to do your job well. It’s just experimentation about comms, being open to trying a few different things.

Nat: And one of the great things about being a Powrsuitor is you can drop us in. Hey, I’ve been investing in my professional development through the Powrsuit podcast, and the action they’ve suggested I try this week is… and you could pick any of those three things. I’d like to ask you what success looks like and how I can better contribute to it. That’s one. Or, I’d like to ask what would be the best way for me to show you what I’m working on each week, so we’re getting out of assumption mode. Or thirdly, tell me the best way for me to communicate updates with you. Three very simple questions. Wrap it in a statement about how you’re investing in yourself, and go forth.

The final thing I’d like to say, and this has been playing on my mind when we talk about managers, is that a lot of them are poorly trained, they’re humans too, lots of issues. But every now and again you will come up against someone who is an unmovable force in your path. They could have been in poor habits for so long that they’re not open to change, a really fixed mindset. It could be a real personality clash. And every now and again, narcissists do exist. I think we overuse that term, but I tend to find every now and again there’s one in an office and they cause absolute mayhem for the people they target.

One of the questions that came up in the membership network in the last couple of weeks was, when is it time to walk away? The reason we like to share these tips is that sometimes we’re quick to jump to, they’re a narcissist, they’re a bully, whatever, without actually trying to resolve it. But if you do try these things, genuinely try them, try a few different experiments, and every single time you get shut down and you’re feeling miserable, it is okay. At that point you don’t have to continue trying to figure out what you can do. I’ve noticed with some of our members that they really flagellate themselves. I’ve got to keep trying, it’s a failure if I don’t figure this out. And that’s not always true, right?

Kristen: No, 100%. I actually haven’t left a job because of a manager, it’s more the situation. And I’ve had some terrible managers. I was categorising them in my brain the other day. One was a very busy, often male exec. I reported right into a VP at a very young age, which was strange, and I got maybe five minutes a month of their time and they left me alone. I did have weird autonomy, but I was also hugely self motivated, so somehow it kind of worked out for me to have those types of people. That said, I didn’t know what success looked like for them and I didn’t know how to ask. So this would have been hugely helpful. The other type of manager…

Nat: Can I just interrupt before you continue to the second one, because I disagree. It’s not fair to put a young person in a position where they get five minutes. I think that’s a really outdated attitude. Not yours, but that attitude in managers is really outdated, and it leads to a lot of managers not investing in their people. They’re really capable, they’re ambitious, I can wipe my hands of them. It is your responsibility. You would have been better off with a manager who stepped in there and helped you develop and helped you find things. So yes, you were fine, you got through, but imagine what could have happened if they’d done a good job.

Kristen: And probably, to your point about it being outdated, we’re talking a long time ago. I’m dating myself.

Nat: Five years.

Kristen: Yeah, just yesterday. And then the other person was a very busy woman, and I often unfairly thought, oh man, they’re not very kind in their micromanaging. But what I realise now is the pressure that was on them, to do a full time, very senior delivery job and then manage a team of people. No wonder they weren’t the best manager. That was a very tricky situation to navigate. It didn’t make me leave, but it certainly gave me anxiety, which was not nice.

Nat: Could they have delegated better? Out of interest, when you say they had a full time job, did they? Because I’m always curious. If their job is delivery, surely their team is meant to be doing a lot of that doing.

Kristen: We were doing a lot of that doing. I think it was unreasonable expectations. And part of it could have been the whole concept of, oh, I know, we’ll give her a full time high pressure job and a team of people. I’m not suggesting men don’t get that, but yeah.

Nat: Well, they may just not take care of the team.

Kristen: Yeah, I don’t know. It was a tricky environment too. So anyway, never mind, here we are. I made it. Oh my goodness, I made it.

Nat: I want to end on a quote, and I’m going to lead into it with something I love as part of Powrsuit, which is to assume positive intent. Ask yourself, what is it like to be them? Everything that’s happening is not because of you. Assume they have good intentions when it comes to you and your role and your future, but they may just not know how to show it, or they may be under huge pressure. So start to build the relationship, build social capital, put money in the relationship bank. Oh my gosh, that’s so cheesy.

I’m going to end with a quote from Mary Abbajay, from her book Managing Up. When we come from a place of judgment, we become stuck in our own worldview. When we come from a place of curiosity, we expand our range of possibility.

Kristen: Perfect ending. Because with the manager thing, it’s really easy to live in frustration and feel powerless. But you’re the one most severely impacted by it. And often the person who feels the pain the most is in the best position to solve it, because they’re the most motivated to. So I love that as a challenge. What action can I take to really say I’ve put my best effort into delivering my half of this relationship?

Nat: Yes. Check out powrsuit.com, come and join the membership network. We’re having a great time. It’s a party over here.

Kristen: Well, actually, do you know what, I was thinking that particularly with this topic there’s been a lot of it in the network. I don’t know if everyone knows this, but once you become a member you get access to our membership network, which has a whole bunch of fabulous weekly events you can pick and choose from. But we also have, it’s not Slack, but imagine something like Slack or Teams, where people are chatting. You can meet and chat with other Powrsuitors. And one of the things you can do is ask an anonymous question, so no one knows it’s you. If it’s something particularly scary and you don’t want anyone to know where you work, that’s fine, no one ever has to.

Some of these topics get really gnarly. One of the things I’ve noticed in the last six months especially is that every one of these questions gets five or six genuinely strong comments from people who’ve been there, done that, who put their hand up offering support. And people follow through and end up having some really gnarly, hard stuff solved through the power of community. It’s something we don’t talk about a lot when we talk about Powrsuit, but we watch it every day, people connecting and helping each other solve their problems. It’s fine to listen to half an hour of us on a podcast, but that’s where the real change comes from. When you’ve got two people who’ve just been through what you’ve been through, who can tell you what worked for them, it’s really nice.

Nat: Yeah, totally agreed. Stay tuned, subscribe, share this podcast with a friend, and we’ll catch you all next time. Bye.