How to back yourself in meetings

Kristen: Nat.

Nat: Kristen.

Kristen: You just need to back yourself.

Nat: Thank you. I’ve backed myself all the way back from Bali.

Kristen: You are looking sunkissed and golden.

Nat: Sunkissed, but not nearly as tanned as I’d like to be. I’m actually disappointed with my level of tan. And I have big news from Bali that I didn’t tell you, even though we’ve just come off an hour and a half catch-up because we spent ten days apart. I have a favorite lipstick. It’s a Long Stay Maybelline, just a supermarket one, but it stays on for five days. It’s amazing, and I cannot for the life of me find the color anymore in New Zealand, Australia or Singapore. It got to the point where Kyla was like, you’re just going to have to give up, because every time I went into a chemist I’d be rifling through the shelves. Then I walked into a chemist in Bali and they had it. I made them rummage around the back, and I’ve come home with two. We got a free cocktail-making class because we’re friends with the people who work at the place, and they asked if we could do some marketing for them. We make the cocktails and video it. My niece said, you have to put your beautiful lipstick on, and then Kyla stole one, because she’s going to give it to me for Christmas and I’ll have forgotten it by then.

Kristen: Aw. Is it coral? Is that what you’re wearing?

Nat: This one, but it’s a bright pinky coral. I know that’s a very boring story for most people, but for me, what a success.

Kristen: No, that’s a win. Please tell me you bought more than one.

Nat: I wiped them out by buying two, and I couldn’t find it in any other chemist, so who knows, it’s probably gone. It’s called Heroine.

Kristen: That doesn’t sound great, by the way. Heroin from Bali.

Nat: I also bought what I think is a prescription-level face peel. You need a prescription for it here, but you can just buy it over the counter there. Then I found it on Instagram and people were saying, when your face starts peeling… and I thought, oh no, I don’t think I want to do this.

Kristen: It’ll be fine. It’ll just be a bit acidic. Do it on a Friday.

Nat: They give you a moisturizer to put on afterwards.

Kristen: You’d be fine. Do it. Okay. I asked whether you’d backed yourself because I think we do back ourselves, but there are seasons in our careers where we probably had some doubt and some wobbles, and it’s usually in a transition, like stepping up or moving into new rooms. Something I’ve noticed is that there are often themes with Powrsuiters who join, because we get them to fill out a quick form where they self-evaluate their self-leadership skills and talk about their stress levels. It takes three minutes, but it’s an incredible snapshot of where you are in your career right now. I remember a theme last year where I thought, all these women just need a pay rise, because they all wanted to negotiate their pay, and I was like, we’ve got you. This one was a bit more vague. It’s a statement we tend to hear as women: “I just want to be able to back myself in a room.” You can break that into a bunch of steps. They’ve got into the rooms, and the first thing is feeling comfortable enough to speak up and share a perspective or an opinion. The second is the uncertainty about how everyone will react. Is it good enough? Is it the right thing? What if I get questioned about it? And then there’s the third piece: I feel strongly about this, so here’s how I back up my opinion and stay resolute. It felt vague, and I always try to point people to resources in Powrsuit. We’ve got a few bits and pieces on it, but I thought maybe through this chat something will crop up that we can then turn into a mini masterclass.

Nat: I love that justification. You’re like, we haven’t planned anything, so we’re hoping that as we start talking…

Kristen: Something brilliant is going to come up.

Nat: I do love this as a topic, though. When we first started planning, you mentioned that people often set a three-month goal like this, and you’re right that it feels vague. “I just want to back myself and speak up.” There are about twelve thousand different skills that can fall under that banner, but it’s so common. In Bali, when we were at the water park, my mum was waiting to pick up a blow-up tube for one of those horrible water slides. A guy came past who’d obviously been waiting, but she hadn’t realized, because she’d plucked his kid out of the pool. He said, excuse me, that’s mine, I was waiting for that. My mum was really thrown, and she said, wow, he didn’t have to be that rude. I did teach her my trick, which is to put your finger up near their mouth and go…

Kristen: Can you imagine your mum doing that?

Nat: The whole time I was asking, when someone says something rude, what do you do? But I thought, that is the exact opposite of what we’re talking about. I think there’s a huge amount of gendered conditioning in this. That guy felt the world revolved around him. He had every right to yell at a stranger over a total misunderstanding and move on with his life without feeling anything. Yet so many Powrsuiters are at the opposite end of that continuum going, how do I have a voice, and how do I make it heard? Probably not in a situation like that, but in something as simple as a meeting. We’ve seen the flip side too. It’s so interesting to watch someone you know is incredibly smart, capable and experienced, and very good at their job, shrink in meetings. It’s career-limiting, because if you can’t confidently articulate your opinions and the value you have to offer, you end up not being perceived as you are. So I love this as a topic for Powrsuiters and our wider audience. It’s a big perception challenge, and hopefully something will come to us.

Kristen: It will. We’re in solution mode. Another common time you might need this is in an interview. We’ve called this out before, when people use the word “we” in an interview and you have to say, I don’t know, but what did you do as part of that? Something I’ve found interesting, and we’ve spoken about it for years: say you’re growing in your career or at a skill or a hobby. You work at it consistently, you do the hard yards, and all of a sudden you’re exceptionally good at one thing. You’re certainly in a position of confidence, because we know repetition and building competence equals confidence. But when you navigate a new arena, a new season, a new situation, you’re no longer that expert. You don’t have that personal brand attached, and you have to resell yourself, your opinions and your thoughts. I like this woman, I’ve talked about her twice in two weeks. Her name is Herminia Ibarra, she’s at London Business School, and she’s a fascinating researcher. She talks about the competency trap. You fall into it by being good at something, so you keep doing the thing you’re known for and everyone’s delighted. But then the muscle you need for the next thing never gets used, which is why you feel like a fish out of water.

Nat: I also like that we’re treating speaking up and being heard in meetings as its own skill, because I don’t think it’s focused on as a skill. You’ve got me thinking about an article I read this morning about the death of the dinner party. For generations, dinner parties were a thing, and you’d invite people over and host. We don’t really do that anymore. COVID was one factor, but another is that we prefer to be home alone now, because streaming services and TikTok have created such a high level of enjoyment without any friction. You don’t have to deal with awkward moments, or cleaning your house, or getting everyone in the same spot at the same time. That flows through to everything. We don’t talk to people as much because we order through QR codes and tap and go on the bus. I think the article said we speak thirty percent less, though I could be making up that stat. It was a significant amount, anyway. She also pointed out that we do a lot of our talking through text and email. Back to Bali, people would ring the villa to organize things, and my nephew had never picked up a landline before. My sister coached him on what to do in a phone call, because he was desperate to answer like everyone else. She sent me a video of him answering, saying “you’re welcome, thank you, you’re welcome.” Sarah said she didn’t know whether he’d ordered dinner or cocktails. But I’d imagine younger people in the workforce, and those of us who speak thirty percent less, aren’t practicing this skill at all in other situations, which probably used to give us the basis for how to do it at work. So I think it’s important to realize we’re probably beginners at it, or at least rusty, and to see it as a skill and actively practice it.

Kristen: I think we should break it down. The first thing is to speak up. If we take a meeting, for example, I love that Ibarra also said you can’t think your way into acting differently. Say you’re in a new scenario with senior stakeholders in the room. Maybe it’s your first board meeting, or your first time presenting to team leaders or executives, and you’re already feeling nervous. The flippant “just back yourself, you’ve got this” is fine, and positive self-talk will get those endorphins going, but you can’t think yourself into speaking up. Ibarra says you have to act differently. When I think about the first thing to do, I love “speak early.” We had Ashley Pahulik, and Shelley Lombard also said the same thing: be the first to speak in a meeting, because otherwise someone’s going to say your point and you’ll be thinking, that was my thing.

Nat: Yes.

Kristen: So don’t think yourself into it, waiting for a moment where you’ll be able to insert yourself. Just commit to acting a little differently in your next meeting, or the next time you have an opportunity in front of more senior people, and speak up. We’ll talk about a bit of prep, but acting differently, being the first to say something, is the starting point.

Nat: I’d say do that in real life as well. People like me hate talking on the phone, which we talked about in our rudeness episode, and we have our headphones on out in the world all the time. Apply the Nike “just do it” attitude to the rest of your life. If you find yourself thinking, I really don’t want to pick up the phone, do it, because it’s a really good way to practice speaking. When you talk to your coffee shop person, chat to them. Practice small talk and saying hello to a stranger. I know that sounds silly, but it really shocked me that we’re doing far less speaking to each other these days, and that’s an easy opportunity. You can’t think your way into acting differently, so start acting differently in all those low-stakes moments and get in the habit of talking more.

Kristen: There was a study on this. Say you’ve accepted that you’re going to say something and you’ve prepped your point. Ashley Pahulik’s question is, what is the one thing you want people to remember? If you leave them with one concept, opinion, idea or perspective, what is it? Synthesize that into one sentence and you’ve got your sentence. What was interesting is that people could visually see themselves doing that. I have to speak early, that feels a bit strange, but I’m going to do it and share my one point. The barrier, apparently, is the fear of what comes next, the twenty seconds after, when they think, they’re not going to like my point, they’re going to disagree, they’re going to question me, they’re going to think it’s dumb. I wanted us to dig into that, because we’ve done some really great “speak early, prep your point” content, but we’ve never done the “you’ve said the thing, now what?” part. I think that’s what keeps people from doing it in the first place.

Nat: I completely agree. I can’t remember which episode it was, about how we both come from debating families and often share our opinions. I think that’s why so many people don’t share. It’s the meeting after the meeting, because they don’t want the challenge. You hold your opinion in and never share it, so you can walk away thinking, my opinion was right, but you’ve never put it in a position to be challenged. Then you talk about it through unofficial channels where it won’t be. It applies to relationships too, where we say “such and such did this” to friends who aren’t going to challenge us. One of the best pieces of advice I got years ago came from a guy who ran a company and always did media interviews. I asked how he wasn’t terrified, and he said, I know my subject better than anyone. I think we underestimate our knowledge and our subject area because we do it all day every day and forget that no one else knows it. We know this because we get everyone to do their elevator pitches quite regularly, and every time, people are blown away by what other people do. What seems mundane to one person is extremely different to everyone else. So recognize that you probably know more about the thing than you realize. If you get challenged or questioned on it, there’s a very high likelihood you already know the answer without having to prep.

Kristen: Maybe what prep does is act as the psychological blankie, reminding yourself of that stuff. I was looking into what would be a really simple way to do it, and I want to give credit to Rhiannon McKinnon, whom we had in as an expert speaker. She delivered a mini masterclass on making decisions more quickly. What she said was that even if it’s the wrong decision, you show your workings. I had a leader say something similar to me. He came in as a new CEO to a business I was working with, and he said, one thing you’ll find out very quickly about me is that I will always make a decision. That’s especially welcome after a leader who’s been indecisive, which can be really painful. He said, I may not always make the right one, but I will make a decision. There’s something satisfying about being part of a business that promises momentum, where you take a step forward, maybe not the right one, but a step. Rhiannon said that if a leader asks why you made a call, you say, this was the information, these were the three points available to me at the time, and my judgment was based on them. You’re not going to be failed for that. They’ll say, I can see how you came to that, and a discussion follows. So, quickly, four components. Number one is…

Nat: Can I just jump in? We have a really good mini masterclass on decision-making. We’ve got three, because it’s a three-step process, and the final one is on actually making the decision, so if you’re a Powrsuiter, go and watch it. Part of the fear people have is that a lot of our opinions are literally just opinions. We haven’t researched or validated them, so when we share them we know they’re shaky. This simple exercise allows you to document and show your thinking. No one is ever going to make a perfect decision, because we only know whether a decision was perfect after the fact. But if you get in the habit of working through a simple process, asking what you discounted, what the other options were, what you did to validate it, what the implications and risks are, then when you go in to share it you have all of that handy. You can say, I know we don’t know that, but I decided it’s not too much of a risk. We’ve all been brought up on a culture of the brilliant ideas person, so we think it’s about having an idea and running forward with it. But spending ten minutes validating your opinion or decision before you share it puts you in a really good position. Otherwise you’re sharing a random idea you haven’t thought through, and setting yourself up for questions you can’t answer. This is an easy way to avoid that.

Kristen: For that one in particular, the cheat sheet calls it a mini business case, so go and have a look at it. You download it and have it ready when problems come your way. Say I’m going into a forum where we share customer experiences, and we’ve been called in to solve a problem. My suggestion is to grab a sticky note and quickly go through a few components. First, your position. What’s the one thing you want to leave everyone with, knowing it’s attached to your name? Second, what does it rest on? Where did you get to that? Is it data, evidence, a customer interview, a conversation you’ve had? Keep it super simple. Third, any trade-offs. Did you discount a piece of feedback because it was an outlier, or reject anything else? Be able to say, I looked at these two other problems, but I still think this is the main one. And the fourth is, what would change your mind? If you were given more time for deep dives, or if this thing cropped up, you might shift your opinion, but for now this is what it rests on. Don’t overthink it. Sounds like an easy framework. Thoughts?

Nat: I really like it. The mini business case walks you through it, and our mini masterclass shows you how to put it together without overdoing it. Two other things. First, we see Powrsuiters do this all the time, getting out of their comfort zone. I remember someone who went into peer coaching and said, I’m going to speak first, because I’m terrified of speaking first and I’m just going to do it. She went in and completely blanked, which was her worst-case scenario. But because she’d told everyone she was getting out of her comfort zone by going first, they did exactly what you’d hope. They encouraged her, supported her and gave her space, and she got through it. If you’re not in peer coaching, you might have a manager or colleague you can say to, I’m really nervous about sharing this, can you answer the next question if they come back to me? Or can we do this as a team? Or can you make sure you ask the question? It’s okay to do that. In fact I’d say it’s encouraged. You could call it amplification or allyship, and especially if it’s your manager, they’ll be delighted to see you actively stepping up. The second thing is what I think you’re going to chat about, from Rhiannon. Sometimes we go in with our opinions thinking it’s a battle, where either my opinion wins or yours does. I’ve always gone into these conversations thinking the whole purpose of showcasing my opinion is to have other people challenge it, build on it and change it, so we come to a better outcome. We have to change the mindset from “my idea is good or bad” to “my idea is a starting point that I’m sharing because I want it challenged and built on.” Work is a team sport. The more senior you get, the more you realize that wanting your idea to win is self-limiting and career-limiting, and it never gets the best outcome either. They’re not challenging you, they’re challenging your opinion in order to improve it. That can feel like conflict, but it really isn’t.

Kristen: That one is layered, so I want to get to it in a sec. On the first point, I asked in a LinkedIn poll what helped you back yourself in the room. Twenty percent said someone backing me. That’s a tactic where you do the pre-meeting and say, would you mind giving me the floor or calling on me, or when I share, would you chime in? Fifty percent said prepping, which is what we’re talking about, and you can try those four components. And twenty-five percent said, honestly, just doing it. That’s back to Ibarra, who says you have to act yourself out of what you’re not currently doing, because you can’t think your way out of it. You’re not going to wake up feeling confident. My personal trainer, I told him I’ve got a lot on right now, and I missed a session I have to do in between our sessions, because I was painting all weekend and my back was sore. I said I can’t go lift eighty kilos because I’ve been crouched all weekend and I don’t want to hurt myself. I was making excuses.

Nat: Crouching all weekend was your gym session.

Kristen: No, no. He looked me square in the eyes and said, one hour, twice a week. I said, I’m just not motivated right now. And he said, action precedes motivation. I didn’t want to hear it. You’re never going to wake up motivated.

Nat: I notice that with running. I’m trying to get back up to three times a week, and in Bali my sister and I had a run club. We only did fifteen minutes because it was so hot, and we ran around and around the resort where we were staying. I was so pleased, because stopping for ten days is really painful. If I’m not running, I’ll have a drink at night and eat unhealthy food. As soon as I start, it creates a positive spiral where I don’t want to do that, because I’m going running tomorrow. This stuff is so complicated.

Kristen: I know. But I’m going to end on…

Nat: Before that, I wonder if you can reverse the advice about having a support person. If you’re really nervous about speaking up, be the support person. Start by building on someone else’s idea, or say to them beforehand, are you going to say this? Because I’d like to add to it. Could I ask the first question afterwards? I think that’s a thing.

Kristen: Men do it all the time. In fact, they repeat what I say and then the chair says, that’s a really great idea. I remember putting my hand up in a meeting and saying, excuse me, I literally said that three minutes ago. Men are really good at building on people’s ideas, so take a page out of their book.

Nat: It’s terrible when it’s misappropriated, but the whole point is that we’re meant to be building on each other’s ideas. That might be what I mean about the mindset. We think our idea has to be pristine in its own format and either wins or loses, whereas men are right on this: it’s just an idea, build on it, change it, tweak it. But when it’s misappropriated, I agree, that’s terrible.

Kristen: Even saying, “Kim, I loved what you said about that, because I’ve experienced it too,” means that, weirdly, psychologically, you’re now talking in the meeting, which means you’ve acted differently. Back to that one point, we know it’s a double-edged sword for women. I certainly don’t want to walk into a space as the only woman and not know my stuff. I don’t want to look dumb. It’s a real thing, because we’re penalized for knowing too much and we’re penalized for not knowing enough, so I can see how we second-guess ourselves. I think we should end on this. While you were in Bali, we had an expert interview with Jennifer Rose.

Nat: Oh yes, I never asked you about it.

Kristen: You have to watch it. It’s in the platform, and she was one zinger after another.

Nat: She was popping off.

Kristen: We didn’t talk about singing, but we talked about bribery, and she was great. What she said that was interesting is that, because of this double-edged sword, women hold their opinions tightly and get defensive. I’m defensive, a hundred percent, and that will be from a lifetime of not being taken seriously.

Nat: It’s not a personality flaw. It’s conditioned. When we’re aware of it, we can work on it.

Kristen: Yes. She said what she’s noticed in women is a desire to be right, so you only speak when you’re certain, and you speak rarely and far too late. Because you think you have to be right, you only speak when you’re really certain. She said, stop doing that, and start speaking frequently. It’s okay not to be right. Look at those four components: based on my sliver of knowledge in this area, or my past experience, here’s my point, it’s based on this, I don’t have any other trade-offs because I haven’t been exposed to anything else, but I’d change my mind if I experienced that. You don’t have to be right. You’re just sharing a perspective or an experience.

Nat: When you look at that mini business case and change your attitude from being right to contributing to the overall outcome, you can raise things you haven’t fully validated. We do it all the time. We’ll say, it’s a small sample size, three of our members have said this, it might be an emerging pattern, but it’s only three. You’re not trying to prove you’re right or wrong. You’ve given three data points, which isn’t a lot, so there’s every chance it’s not relevant, but you’re raising it because it could be, and maybe someone else has other data points. That’s a beautiful way to do it, because you’re adding to the discussion rather than trying to present a perfect opinion, which you’ll never do because we never have all the information and context. I would hope everyone can take something from this. We’ve done a really good job of figuring out what we’re going to talk about, well done us. My opinion is that we’re excellent, and I’m willing to change my mind if we get a flood of listener opinions saying, ugh, lame. But I think it’s a great thing for us all to test this week. Don’t wait for the perfect opinion or the perfect decision. Do a little validation, then raise it. And have a person on hand to ask your first question if you want that backup, which is entirely valid, because they might want to prep as well and have something easy to say.

Kristen: My invitation to everyone is to sign up to Powrsuit. Why not? Do a monthly subscription, sign up for a couple of months, and you can listen to Ashley Pahulik, who talks about how to make a better impact in meetings, how to interject and speak. You can listen to Shelley Lombard, who talks about visibility, including what to do in meetings and Zoom calls, and one tip is to be the first to speak. You can watch Rhiannon’s session on decision-making if you find yourself slow to decide. You can watch Kristen’s and my mini masterclass on the best solution and the business case. And you can watch the latest Jennifer Rose interview, which is just amazing and feel-good. Sign up for a few months and consume all of those, because what we’ve covered here is quite surface-level. We’re throwing a bunch of stuff at you, but you can practice some of these things.

Nat: I love that. We got a great piece of feedback today from someone who had just left a job and was moving into a new one. I loved how she put it. She said she’s pulling from different mini masterclasses at each step to remember to speak up. She wrote, “I’m using the skills I’ve learned from some of the mini masterclasses: interviews, writing emails people answer, taking back my calendar, showing up as myself, and many more applicable ones to listen to.” So as she gets set up in this new job, she’s going step by step through one mini masterclass at a time, reminding herself how to set herself up for success, which is exactly what you just recommended. Sometimes it feels huge and like we’ve got to learn all this stuff, but I think the perfect use of Powrsuit is to go for fifteen minutes and say, I’m going to practice writing a better email, and do that for the next week.

Kristen: Tick, done. Thanks, everyone. We’ll catch you all next time. Don’t be a stranger. Bye!